tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4963948681372545235.post2987784848350996329..comments2023-06-02T09:44:27.516-07:00Comments on Words & Numbers: Pandora and Last.fm: Nature vs. Nurture in Music RecommendersUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger78125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4963948681372545235.post-56513759566845966462008-08-24T16:28:37.000-07:002008-08-24T16:28:37.000-07:00There is nothing more that I could add to the deba...There is nothing more that I could add to the debate which has not already been said, except for that Last.fm has one distinct advantage over its competitors - It is available outside of the U.S, unlike Pandora who had its global operations restricted to just American territories because of the copyright board rulings in 2007 and were required to restrict its use.<br>Unfortunately, for this reason I have never been able to expereince Pandora for myself, but have read about it numerous times, which is quite a shame. It appears that the biggest concern for personalised radio stations is the outrageous music licensing which is bordering on the absurd. If only the music companies realised that these tools for music discovery could be used to boost exposure for their artists, it could create a new econmic model not based on expensive and complicated individual licensing deals.<br>Gerd Leonhard offers an insight into what th future of music could be like in his e-book "music 2.0" which does raise some interesting questions about copyright with digital music, if a bit lacking in detail in parts, which I suggest people should check out if they're interested in the topic.<br>Bennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4963948681372545235.post-51356231586626098482008-06-19T14:18:19.000-07:002008-06-19T14:18:19.000-07:00One aspect of Last.fm that is more compelling is t...One aspect of Last.fm that is more compelling is the Social Network aspect. The services are fairly equal in many ways, but I prefer Last.fm just because I find myself hitting the "Ban" button fewer time. And once I developed a group of friends, many from my "neighborhood" well at that point it wasn't only about the music, it was about visiting these new and often distant friends whose musical taste turns out to be a quite a predictor of other shared perspectives...Pandora's social efforts fell short and I hardly ever go back...<br>john<br>www.very.fm<br>John Pasmorehttp://www.very.fmnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4963948681372545235.post-49406543107858101122008-04-16T23:01:29.000-07:002008-04-16T23:01:29.000-07:00I agree that last.fm s getting much better the las...I agree that last.fm s getting much better the last year. And as more jou train your station the better the better it sounds.<br>stadtantennehttp://www.stadtantenne.chnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4963948681372545235.post-15571021489613966542008-03-03T14:35:21.000-08:002008-03-03T14:35:21.000-08:00You can have the best of both worlds, however. Th...You can have the best of both worlds, however. There's a service accessible through LastFM that lets you listen to Pandora and tag/love/ban the tracks and artists at LastFM while scrobbling what the tracks you hear. Thus you not only get Pandora's (eventually) better recommendations but the tracking and retention capabilities of LastFM. I get mostly garbage from LastFM listening to their "stations". Pandora actually applies my "yeas" and "nays" to what it feeds me next.<br>When you can make stations based on whether you're in the mood for potato chips or Quiche Lorraine, and refine them to your tastes, and still look up your favorite artist from a month ago, that's how music software should work.<br>legbamelhttp://squidoo.com/musicalitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4963948681372545235.post-60892487454119050482008-01-30T08:23:51.000-08:002008-01-30T08:23:51.000-08:00Superb article Mr. Krause and some insightful obse...Superb article Mr. Krause and some insightful observations about the way it is and the way it could be. Thank you.<br>After reading this article and several of the ensuing comments, there is no way I'll be making the trip to LastFM. Pandora is (and will continue to be) by personalized streaming radio station of choice. The notion of LastFM feeding me a playlist based on how my specific music tastes are similar to everyone else is precisely the homogenized, herd-mentality, lowest-common-denominator drek that has diluted artistic expression (and appreciation) since the dawn of culture.<br>While Pandora is pioneering the exploration of the essence of music, LastFM is mining the mass media, mass culture, artistically stagnant, be-like-everyone-else vein.<br>Which - given the nature of the web and contemporary culture - means LastFM will be wildly popular and rich while Pandora gets shunted to an academic back-water as a theoretical curiosity.<br>Sorry. Feeling a bit snarky today. The point is... I would much rather discover new music based on the MUSIC's composition (even if I don't necessarily like it) than based the statistical average of people who think Surivor and The Bachelor are haute culture, and who haven't the courage to embrace an emotional challenge.<br>feh... I sound like a frothing aesthete. Do what you want, listen to what you want... but if you consume the musical equivalent of junkfood, don't whine when your soul collapses in puddle of flaccid, self-indulgent, twaddle.<br>DHRobinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4963948681372545235.post-68007704495749650432008-01-07T08:07:22.000-08:002008-01-07T08:07:22.000-08:00I started using Pandora and Last.fm around the sam...I started using Pandora and Last.fm around the same time. After a while I gave up Last.fm and stayed with Pandora. The problem was that I was finding it more difficult to "customize" my listening experience on last.fm. IMHO it wasn't quite "learning" my tastes fast enough. Pandora, on the other hand has created the ultimate stations. It takes time, but my listening experience is much better on Pandora.<br>Some may disagree, but let me point out one thing I discovered about Pandora. It's fairly easy to end up "in the weeds" if you throw too much information all at once. If I throw too many songs and artists at it all at once without letting it "learn" you end up messing up your station because songs and artists have different sounds and Pandora gets "confused" so to speak. Take it slow. Add a little at a time.<br>musiclovernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4963948681372545235.post-4708197465925990972007-11-06T23:38:08.000-08:002007-11-06T23:38:08.000-08:00a great aticle..have been using lastfm and pandor...a great aticle..have been using lastfm and pandora for years now an both are excellent for me,as i'm into all kinds of music/<br>djteelhttp://nightmotions.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4963948681372545235.post-22137739321817760652007-08-13T18:38:42.000-07:002007-08-13T18:38:42.000-07:00I agree that Pandora could be improved upon. Speci...I agree that Pandora could be improved upon. Specifically, as you have mentioned, by allowing users to shape their stations based on 'genes'. However, Pandora is far more than 'promising' when compared to the stagnant and unoriginal Last-FM which apart from its 'skyping' capabilities offers nothing more than the same old method of receiving recommendations from the ignorant masses with their inappropriate and misspelled tags. It especially falls short for those with obscure tastes, only playing a few tracks before running out of choices. Pandora provides great recommendations no matter how idiosyncratic the seed, as my Glass Eye and Khaleel stations attest.<br>OGRastamonhttp://ograstamon.stumbleupon.com/about/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4963948681372545235.post-89399735254248436192007-07-18T02:56:27.000-07:002007-07-18T02:56:27.000-07:00I haven't been happy with either Pandora or La...I haven't been happy with either Pandora or Last.fm. The stuff they think I'll like gets rapidly worse towards the tail -- they work fine for the popular stuff I like, but not so much for the rarer stuff. Also, being a mac user, loading a web page really doesn't mesh with the way I listen to music on my computer. I was using iLike which is a downloadable app, and it's OK, but recently I've switched to Additune. The recommendations are simply amazing and it works with my iTunes library. I don't have to rate stuff, I don't have to tell it what I want to listen to -- I just select a playlist from my library and tell it to give me more songs like the ones in my playlist. It's still a beta and doesn't yet do all the stuff some of the other guys do, but it's getting there. The GUI looks like something out of Leopard and again the recs are just so spot on it's uncanny.<br>Alfredo Defeugonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4963948681372545235.post-54727924706118444102007-07-09T21:04:43.000-07:002007-07-09T21:04:43.000-07:00I know its been a little while since this post. I ...I know its been a little while since this post. I just want to say how much last.fm's recommendation system has improved. Obviously there's been a lot more users & music added to the database, but to me, its obvious their algorithm has been significantly improved. I joined in Jan 07; Lastfm's recomendations to me in say April 07 were delivering good recommendations about 5 or 6 times out of 10. These days its 8 or 9 times out of ten. A fantastic hit rate, and the recommendations are not only popular artists. I get a lot of spot-on recommendations for artists with only a couple of hundred plays.<br>I now found myself wanting to play my recommendations in preference to music I already know. If you haven't listened recently, its worth checking out again.<br>Nectar_Cardhttp://www.last.fm/user/Nectar_Card/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4963948681372545235.post-24841004577069376362007-06-10T22:41:22.000-07:002007-06-10T22:41:22.000-07:00I agree that Pandora's music is a bit substand...I agree that Pandora's music is a bit substandard. I much prefer listening to last.fm's radio as it has more surprises. Let's see how the CBS buyout effects the music they play and the artists that they push.<br>On a different front of music recommendation I have recently been enjoying using The Filter. This software effectively makes Pandora/Lastfm radio stations from within your own music collection - which is a nice way to rediscover long lost songs and listen to your music in a refreshing sense. I recommend it as a free download from http://www.thefilter.com<br>Marthanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4963948681372545235.post-68441279590933477842007-03-26T11:58:08.000-07:002007-03-26T11:58:08.000-07:00LastFM is brilliant - but completely different to ...LastFM is brilliant - but completely different to Pandora. We use it in all of our posts at http://www.trackfeeder.com . Its great for bloggers. Personally i think Pandora is a bit of a let down . You have to sit through hours and hours of rubbish music. Try http://www.finetune.com . I can't see it mentioned is these comments. Its brilliant<br>Tomhttp://www.trackfeeder.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4963948681372545235.post-58064215264353981022007-01-27T19:54:13.000-08:002007-01-27T19:54:13.000-08:00Steve, thanks for excellent analysis. I'm curi...Steve, thanks for excellent analysis. I'm curious if your thinking changed in any way since you wrote this post a year ago.<br>Now that Pandora powers MSN Radio, Last.fm received some funding, and Ticketmaster liked iLike, it seems that there will be some acquisitions this year, which usually slows the pace of innovation. How will we all find what to listen to next?<br>Gene Linetskyhttp://cbmsnetworks.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4963948681372545235.post-5157252718720767912007-01-22T05:52:44.000-08:002007-01-22T05:52:44.000-08:00Both, last.fm and pandora are incredible. At the m...Both, last.fm and pandora are incredible. At the moment I listen a lot to pandora, thats why I use a firefox plugin, which includes my listened songs from pandora to last.fm (http://code.yerblog.com/lastfm/)... I think thats a great opportunity.<br>miky_maniachttp://www.buckblog.de/2006/12/mein-lastfm-profil-auf-japanisch.htmlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4963948681372545235.post-10867395743172383672006-12-03T13:58:53.000-08:002006-12-03T13:58:53.000-08:00So to bring this a little more up to date since th...So to bring this a little more up to date since the review was created very early in the year.<br>It would appear that Pandora has indeed started to adopt some of the aspects of Last.FM, allowing you to exercise preferences on music. I assume that this means that they are weighting the information in the background so that if you do look to listen to Mesuggah you can tell it that "Gravely Male Vocals" really aren't part of the appeal.<br>But then you can't listen to Pandora for very long without runing into a "please sign up" prompt, which appears to be tracked by IP. Not sure how this would work in a multi-user environment behind a proxy server, but that seem to be what they've adopted.<br>Last.FM on the other hand, has started a streaming media page that appears to let you listen to music for hours upon hours without having to sign up for an account. I suspect that will change at some point since its erally only a disadvantage from their perspective, but for now its good.<br>Last.FM also shows potential for abuse, at least thats the only reason I can see for creating a station based on a tag search for Ministry and ending up having Britney Spears pop into the playlist.<br>These changes are of course meaningless in the long run, what you really want are extensive playlists and a juge artitst pool. Pandora just ain't got it.<br>It can be said of me that I am difficult when it comes to music. I expect everyone to at least be familiar with what I listen to. Pandora wasn't that familiar with my selections, but last.FM had at least heard of 5 of 7 artists (vs 3 of seven for Pandora). Sure I didn't expect to see The Peyote Kings show up in the playlists, but The Great Lukeski could only be found scrobbled in last.fm, Pandora drew a blank.<br>Of course if you consider being teased (as last.FM will do "Oh, yeah! That artist is mentioned in the database! We don't actually have it but it was scrobbled!") a bad thing, stick with Pandora.<br>lyndon Johnsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4963948681372545235.post-87820237569875799202006-11-23T10:11:03.000-08:002006-11-23T10:11:03.000-08:00I enjoyed your review.I was interested in your men...I enjoyed your review.<br>I was interested in your mention of the wide scope of attributes in Pandora as a potential drawback.<br>I think of it rather in the context of granularity. While in a purely analytical context the bubbling up effect into smaller and smaller aggregates, my be meaningful, in the context of the sensory experience, without increasing granularity nuance is obviated.<br>The low resolution of mid seventies monochrome displays versus high definition colour displays of today is a good example.<br>The larger the canvas the greater the capacity for revealing the otherwise inexpressible.<br>Another way of expressing the difference between these two "systemic" experiences is the one is artist centric, the other is listener centric.<br>While the one explores the complexity of the artist by combing different attributes into new aggregates, the other merely normalises the listener's experience toward the mundane.<br>In all art, the acquisition of "taste" is always to some degree initially a little bitter or a little sweet, a little sour or insipid (unclear).<br>dwchttp://www.pandora.com/people/donaldwcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4963948681372545235.post-16262778179771151722006-09-12T10:44:37.000-07:002006-09-12T10:44:37.000-07:00Aparently the way we understand, use and consume m...Aparently the way we understand, use and consume music is suffering tremendous and interesting changes. Ever since the digital revolution, the music industry has been seriously afected, since napster and limewire facilitated mp3 files exchange, the way we listen and buy music is not the same.<br>Then comes personalized radio wich is very welcomed, since my music library, exceeds 5 thousand legaly purchased tracks, and creating playlists that suit my different moods becomes very important, but it can be a full time job!<br>Then services like Last.FM and Pandora are great when you have a party or when working on you computer, its music you like with little effort.<br>Michael Garcia Novakhttp://www.michaelgarcianovak.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4963948681372545235.post-23420806853449629992006-04-19T00:54:57.000-07:002006-04-19T00:54:57.000-07:00I'd never heard of Last.fm until I read this a...I'd never heard of Last.fm until I read this article, but you seem to have analyzed the differences very fully. I agree that Pandora would benefit from allowing users to dial in the influence certain musical "genes" should have on its recommendations. While I might, for example, like Phil Collins for his vocals, I might be more interested in Bowling for Soup on the basis of their lyrics or energy.<br>Alex Nerihttp://www.legavroche.com/main.htmnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4963948681372545235.post-25700575837553744132006-03-29T06:28:39.000-08:002006-03-29T06:28:39.000-08:00TechCrunch has an article today on a Pandora/Last....TechCrunch has an article today on a Pandora/Last.fm mashup:<br>http://www.techcrunch.com/2006/03/29/pandora-and-lastfm-togethersort-of/<br>Ken Sheppardsonhttp://www.kensheppardson.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4963948681372545235.post-83503697699903914952006-03-28T02:11:00.000-08:002006-03-28T02:11:00.000-08:00I just tried last.fm, for the first time, entering...I just tried last.fm, for the first time, entering the jazz guitarist Bill Frisell — not mainstream, but not obscure either. What I got was : "Error : There is not enough content to play this station."<br>If a mainstream choice gives least-objectionable programming, and a targeted choice no result, maybe Last.fm is made only for popular-but-not-too-much artists ?<br>Pandora recognized it and produced a very nice set of artists…<br>mozkarthttp://profile.typekey.com/mozkart/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4963948681372545235.post-18356413971454400632006-03-22T02:09:53.000-08:002006-03-22T02:09:53.000-08:00Thanks for excellent piece! I have to say I am pa...Thanks for excellent piece! I have to say I am partial at this point to Pandora because 1. This is a new/fresh/interesting way of presenting music to me, which I am always open to, and 2. I am a little tired of simply being linked to things based on what others like. This is across the board with media: "well people who liked this also liked this, or people who bought this also bought this...". It doesn't always capture the nuances of my moods or tastes. Pandora definitely has a way to go (I admit to having a few bizare recommendations come my way) but this approach is very cool.<br>jennimihttp://jennimi.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4963948681372545235.post-68912963567989832762006-03-17T20:18:15.000-08:002006-03-17T20:18:15.000-08:00One of the most interesting new music finding tech...One of the most interesting new music finding techniques I'm using at the moment is MySpace. Most of the bands I like are pretty obscure. Lots of them have MySpace pages. The bands who are influenced by them have invariably befriended them. So by friending those bands, and putting a note on my page saying 'hey, if you play music like the bands I like, let me know', I'm getting a steady stream of email from bands saying 'you might like us'. And indeed I might.<br>Alison Scotthttp://www.kittywompus.com/macadamianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4963948681372545235.post-90363451275328965982006-03-12T04:43:20.000-08:002006-03-12T04:43:20.000-08:00I'm a big fan of Pandora, and it's probabl...I'm a big fan of Pandora, and it's probably my favorite. Steve - great comparison of the two sites. Hopefully when the Pandora team get on top of all the new music 'suggestions' Pandora really will be a force to be reckoned with.<br>The next issue of Music Monthly magazine (19th March) is going to run a feature on '20 essential music-related websites'. Hopefully we'll see more comparison there.<br>simon_jamjarhttp://simonsjamjar.blogspot.com/2006/02/listen-to-music-online-with-pandora.htmlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4963948681372545235.post-16292574643857030422006-03-08T07:10:57.000-08:002006-03-08T07:10:57.000-08:00The obvious thought that strikes me is: 'would...The obvious thought that strikes me is: 'would it be likely that last.fm and Pandora could join forces?'<br>I wonder what such a site would look like. Is it even feasible?<br>Hans Cz. Jørgensennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4963948681372545235.post-7771924094104621782006-02-17T08:24:07.000-08:002006-02-17T08:24:07.000-08:00I enjoyed the post and I found some interesting fo...I enjoyed the post and I found some interesting follow up points. Pandora is a data mining tool that focuses on finding new tracks that resemble some user input. The whole point is to discover new music. I may or may not like the next track, but I appreciate the fact that it is new. It would be annoying if Pandora kept playing the offensive track after I gave it a negative score, but not before!<br>Marco Falcionihttp://falcioni.org/marconoreply@blogger.com